John/Elijah

[AnointedPK]

RevKev, that may not be what Jesus actually said. You are reading from English translations of the New Testament. Thousands of years have passed and your Bible contains adjustments from more than one translator. I'm not saying that it contains error but I am saying that you may not have the full impact of the original wording. Jesus was probably thinking in Hebrew anyway. The thing is, the name Elijah has a specific meaning in Hebrew and it may be the meaning that is important and not the person identified with the meaning. Elijah means, "The Lord, He is my God!" Both John and Elijah identified so strongly with God as their ultimate reality that they lead by sheer ZEAL. Could John be identified by his character instead of the name given to him at birth? In Hebrew thinking, that is obvious. Yes! John is indeed, "The Lord, He is my God!"

That's what I was thinking as I read the NIV translation where Jesus said, speaking of John, "he is the Elijah that was to come", but then His first statement "if you can accept it" got my attention, what did Jesus really mean by that?

[jonathan david]

Well this is an intriguing thought to ponder. It looks like John the Baptist ended up doing and experiencing similar stuff that Elijah did:
1. Continuing prophetic role
2. Confronting kings (Ahab/Herod)
3. Anointed kings (Hazael, Jehu/Jesus)
4. Victimized by an evil woman (Jezebel/Herodias)
5. Pointing to a “successor” of even greater anointing (Elisha/ Jesus)
6. Arrest attempted (Unsuccessfully by Ahaziah/Successfully by Herod)
7. Seamed to lose faith during the low times (Elijah in a cave/John in Herod’s prison)
8. Encountered Heaven/God at the Jordan River (Elijah taken up in chariot of fire/HS came down as a dove on Jesus)

[revkev]

RevKev, that may not be what Jesus actually said. You are reading from English translations of the New Testament. Thousands of years have passed and your Bible contains adjustments from more than one translator. I'm not saying that it contains error but I am saying that you may not have the full impact of the original wording. Jesus was probably thinking in Hebrew anyway. The thing is, the name Elijah has a specific meaning in Hebrew and it may be the meaning that is important and not the person identified with the meaning. Elijah means, "The Lord, He is my God!" Both John and Elijah identified so strongly with God as their ultimate reality that they lead by sheer ZEAL. Could John be identified by his character instead of the name given to him at birth? In Hebrew thinking, that is obvious. Yes! John is indeed, "The Lord, He is my God!"

Thank you, Tom. Yes, that is interesting, and it does go along with the traditional interpretation that he was more identified with, than actually became.

It's funny you brought it up, because I did consult a Jewish NT (David Stern's), and it reads identical to the English translations. Unfortunately it offers no commentary.

There are such striking similarities between the two that when joined with the declaration of Jesus Himself, the anticipation of the leaders, etc., it really makes one ponder. In fact, the leaders of the day seemed more convinced of John being Elijah than Jesus of being the Messiah.

I am amazed at how much of a split there is in the understanding over the course of NT scholars and commentators. Some just completely ignore the issue. It appears to me that it was the Jews themselves who may have understood what Jesus said better than His disciples did. In the passage where He says John IS Elijah, it could be interpreted that there was some issue with that as He says, "if you can receive this." The Pharisees seemed to be ahead on that. Sometimes I feel that the only ones shocked by that teaching are us.

It is great fun opening up such a teaching. I really do appreciate you taking time to bring another aspect to the table.

[Ezekiel 33]

Except that's not wht Jesus said. In Matthew 11 He said he was Elijah. We are reading into His words and changing them when we insinuate otherwise. One doesn't contradict the other. He was the fulfillment of Malachi 4, and Elijah fulfilled it in and through John. How that constitutes John actually being Elijah is the issue. As I think I mentioned earlier. We have experienced a similar change. No? Have we not been transformed and taken over by he Holy Spirit? What does Paul mean that we literally are new creations? I think this all ties in somehow.

We ARE new creations. If John were somehow Elijah, that would make him an old re-creation.

[Quest]

I don't get the issue...Elizabeth conceived John with her husband...we would have to be saying he was possesed with the spirit of Elijah and that would be reincarnation of a sort...

I agree that it was his mantle, his annointing...

John was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb...or was he? That would mean the Holy Spirit baptims and infilling preceeded Jesus' death...

[Ezekiel 33]

I don't get the issue...Elizabeth conceived John with her husband...we would have to be saying he was possesed with the spirit of Elijah and that would be reincarnation of a sort...

I agree that it was his mantle, his annointing...

John was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb...or was he? That would mean the Holy Spirit baptims and infilling preceeded Jesus' death...

His mother and father were both filled with the Spirit. These are the first instances that I see in the bible of people being filled with the Spirit instead of just having the Spirit upon them.

[josephearl]

I have read through the thread and do not see anything suggested that could derail or be accepted other then what I think of as the traditional view.(Or what I assume is the traditional view, not being familiar with every tradition LOL) That is John is the fulfillment of Elijahs prophesied 2nd coming before the return of the Lord as written by Malachi. I would add, and I see it was alluded to or perhaps mentioned by Tehilah Ba'Aretz's response, that what may be missing is what did the people of that day understand Jesus words to mean. I myself think it is unreasonable, actually I think it is heretical, to assume this passage means or implies that Jesus was trying to legitimize reincarnation of any kind or that he was being literal in His words here in the manner being said or implied by some if I understand what they have written. There is a literal explanation however that has not been discussed as far as I can tell.

““And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.”
The intended meaning of ''if you are willing to accept it..." may be a hint that the Jewish people were wrestling with John's calling that he was Malachi's Elijah because he did not do any miracles like Elijah did. Thus Jesus says, "If you are willing to accept it"

Recall what Malachi said about Elijah's coming,
““For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts. “Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.” (Malachi 4:1–5, NASB95)

Elijahs ministry(?) in burning up the men in groups of 50, “Elijah replied to them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.” (2 Kings 1:12, NASB95
and other examples of his fierce prophetic courage and authority may be alluded to in the words turning them into chaff as in Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,”

Furthermore the insertion of Moses into Malachi's prophetic word may also have contributed to the hope that Elijahs ministry, when he returned, would be one filled with signs and wonders as Moses was also known for. Remember Jesus himself said Jews seek for a sign. It may be they were walking, unknowingly I am sure, in the footsteps of their fathers who killed the prophets but I digress a bit with that thought perhaps. The point being, once again, that the Jews were looking for a fulfillment of scripture that was based on a wrong understanding of the prophetic word. Jesus responded to this error with his words, if you can receive it.
shalom and love, je

[josephearl]

I also have heard Mike Bickle share his view that Elijah will come back literally at the end of the age. I recalled the 2 witnesses prophesied power to have fire come out of their mouths and burn up anyone who would try and harm them. Since Elijah is known to have operated in a similar manner it might very well be that will happen. Cannot think of any 2 better candidates then Moses and Elijah, the Law and the prophets so to speak.